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doodlebug
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|  | Jesus: man or God?
« Thread Started on Dec 8, 2008, 4:18pm » | ![[Quote]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/quote.gif) |
@ http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2373072738&topic=24476
H.A. wrote, "I have been reading {a} bible for {a} year but I'm still {not} convince[d] w[h]ether Jesus Christ is/was a man, God, spirit or [truly] [a] son of God"
[brackets and braces denote characters that [correct] or {clarify}].
Bible verses are freely available, especially (i.e., without registration) the Authorized "King James" Version, the New American Standard Bible (favorite of Protestants), and [Rupert Murdoch's Zondervan Corp.'s] New International Version (different than NASB @ 1st Corinth. 6:9 for the sake of Homophiles!) — consult the Salem Communications Corp. @ http://salem.cc —> http://www.Christianity.com .
These notes appear in The Scofield Reference Bible (1909 C.E.), edited by Rev. C.I. Scofield, D.D. It was published by Oxford University Press, New York, Inc.
The deity of Jesus Christ is declared in Scripture:
(1) In the intimations [= analogies] and explicit predictions of the Old Testament
(a) The theophanies intimate the appearance of God in human form, and His ministry thus to man (Genesis 16:7-13; 18:2-23, especially v. 17; 32:28 with as Hosea 12:3-5; Exodus 3:2-14).
(b) The Messiah is expressly declared to be the Son of God (Psalm 2:2-9), and God (Psa. 45:6,7 with Hebrews 1:8,9; Psa. 110:1 with Matthew 22:44; [The] Acts [of the Apostles] 2:34 and Heb. 1:13; Psa. 110:4 with Heb. 5:6; 6:20; 7:17-21; and Zechariah 6:13).
(c) His virgin birth was foretold as the means through which God could be "Immanuel," God with us (Isaiah 7:13, 14 with Mt. 1:22, 23).
(d) The Messiah is expressly invested with the divine names (Isa. 9:6, 7 [compare 10.20, 21]).
(e) In a prophecy of His death He is called Jehovah's "fellow" (Zech. 13:7 with Mt. 26:31).
(f) His eternal being is declared (Micah 5:2 with Mt. 2:6; John 7:42).
(2) Christ Himself affirmed His deity.
(a) He applied to Himself the Jehovistic I AM. (The pronoun "he" is not in the Greek; confer John 8:24, 56 - 58. The Jews correctly understood this to be our Lord's claim to full deity [v. 59]. See, also, John 10:33; 18:4 - 6, where, also, "he" is not in the original.)
(b) He claimed to be the Adonai of he O.T. (Mt. 22:42 - 45. See Gen. 15:2 note*).
(c) He asserted His identity with the Father (Mt. 28:19; Mark 14:62; John 10:30; that the Jews so understood Him is shown by vs. 31, 32; John 14:8, 9; 17:5).
(d) He exercised the chief prerogative of God (Mk. 2:5s - 7; Lk. 7:48 - 50).
(e) He asserted omnipresence (Mt. 18:20; John 3:13); omniscience (John 11:11 - 14, when Jesus was fifty miles away; Mk. 11: 6 - 8); omnipotence (Mt. 28:18; Lk. 7:14; John 5:21 - 23; 6:19); mastery over nature, and creative power (Lk. 9:16, 17; John 2:9; 10:28).
(f) He received and apporved human worship (Mt. 14:33 **; 28:9; John 20:28, 29).
(3) The N.T. writers ascribe divine titles to Christ (John 1:1; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom. 1:4; 9:5; 2[nd epistle to the] Thessalonians 1:12; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 1 John 5:20).
(4) The N.T. writers ascribe divine perfections and attributes to Christ (e.g. Mt. 11:28; 18:20; 28:20; John 1:2; 2:23 - 25; 3:13; 5:17; 21:17; Heb. 1:3, 11, 12 with Heb. 13:8; Rev. 1:8, 17, 18; 2:23; 11:17; 22:13).
(5) The N.T. writers ascribe divine works to Christ (John 1:3, 10; Colossians 1:16, 17; Heb. 1:3).
(6) The N.T. writers teach that supreme worship should be paid to Christ (Acts 7:59, 60; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Cor. 13:14; Philippians 2:9, 10; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 1:5, 6; 5:12, 13).
(7) The holiness and resurrection of Christ prove His deity (John 8:46; Rom. 1:4).
The latter verse describes Jesus, in the context of (in verse 1) "the gospel of God, ... (verse 4—) And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, ...."
About the term Son of God, a footnote refers to Acts 9:20; Heb. 1:2.
The author of "The Acts of the Apostles" is regarded to be Luke.
Acts 9:20 reads, "And straightaway he [Saul, i.e., Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."
The Apostle Paul declares "the man Christ Jesus" to be "the only mediator between God and man (1st Timothy 2:8).
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* -- available on request.
** -- The term in Greek, translated "worship" is a form of "proskuneõ" [õ = omega], from which the English word "osculate," i.e. kiss, is derived. "Pros" = toward, so "worship" means "kiss toward"
(-Rev. John F. MacArthur, clergyman in Los Angeles [ http://www.graceChurch.org ], twice a guest in Larry King's panel discussions at CNN-TV).
David's Psalm 2 says, "Kiss the Son, lest (= for fear that) he be angry."
_ _ In Luke 4:8 that word is used with "serve," translated from a form of "letruõ" when he quotes Deuteronomy 6:13: "... and him alone you shall serve (letruo)."
"Liturgy" is derived from "leïtos" (= public), derived from "laos" (—> laity = people) and "ourgia," a derivatie of ergon = work.
(-Webster's 7the New Collegiate Dictionary, 1963).
_ _ In the Book of Revelation, an angel rebukes John for worshiping (proskuneo) him, and directs John to worship (same word) God.
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doodlebug
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| | Re: Jesus: man or God?
« Reply #1 on Dec 13, 2008, 3:01pm » | |
This Bible-study (originally a chart) is available from Help Jesus, Box 2212, Station R, Kelowna, B.C., Canada
(-reproduced in "How To Answer A Jehovah's Witness" by Robert A. Morey, published in 1980 by Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, Minnesota, p. 94).
God Is a Spirit:
John's Gospel, chapter 4, verses 23, 24.
The Acts of the Apostles, ch. 7, vv. 48, 49; Acts 17:24 - 28.
Psalm 139:11, 12.
1st book of the Kings 8:27.
Jeremiah 23: 21 - 27.
There is {{{only}}} One God:
• Deutero·nomy 6:4 - 9.
Isaiah 44:6 - 8; 45:2 - 6, 23; 46:8, 9.
Malachi 2:10.
• Mark's Gospel 12:28 - 34.
1st Epistle to Corinth 8:4-6.
Ephesians 4:5,6.
1st Epistles to Timothy 2:5.
Jesus Is Man:
Matthew's Gospel 1:23
2nd Cor. 5:19
• 1st Timothy 3:16
John 1:10; 8:21, 24 - 28, 56 -58; 10:30 - 33
• John 12:44, 45; 14:6 - 10.
Jesus — Is {he a} God {?}
Genesis 1:1 {singular verb, plural noun}
Exodus 3:13 - 15
• Isaiah 7:14; 9:6; {10:20 - 21}
Zechariah 14:9
Malachi 2:10
Common descriptions applied to God and Jesus:
• "I am" says God in Exodus 3:1, 14; Isaiah 43:10, 11, 25.
Jesus says, "I am" in John 8:24 -28; 18:5 - 8; The Revelation 1:17, 18.
• "The first and the last" describes --
God in Isaiah 41:4; 43:10, 11; 44:6, 8;
Jesus in Revelation 1:17; 22:13.
• God is the Rock in Deutero. 32:1 - 4; 2nd book of Samuel 22:13, 32; Book of Pslams 18:2; 31:3; 78:34, 35; 89:26; Isaiah 17:10, 11.
Jesus is the Rock in Mattew 16:17 - 19 (compare with Isaiah 28:16); Acts 4:11, 12; 1st Corinth. 10:4 (compare with Numbers 20:1 - 11); Ephesians 2:20, 22; Peter's 1st Epistle 2:6 - 8.
• God is coming in Psalm 50:1 - 6; Zechariah 14:4, 5; 1st Thessalonians 4:13 - 18; Revel. 19:11, 16.
Jesus shall return according to Matthew 25:31 - 46; 1st Thessal. 3:11 - 13; Titus 2:11 - 13.
• The Creator is God in Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Jõb 33:4; Psalms 33 (v. 4) & 104 (v. 30); Isaiah 40:28; 44:24; 45:11 - 16[+?]; Malichi 2:10.
The Creator is Jesus in John 1:10; 1st Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9; Colossians 1:12 - 17; Hebrews 1:8 - 12; Rev. 4:8 - 11; ; 7:17; 10:6; 14:6, ; 21:5 - 7; 22:3.
• The Redeemer & Savior is —
God — Psalms 78: 34, 35; 106:21; Isaiah 43:3 - 11; 44:6; 45:21; ~~47:4~~ [listed before other chapters]; 49:26; Luke's Gospel 1:46, 47.
Jesus — 1st Epistle of John 4:14; 1st Peter 2:21 - 24;
Acts 20:28; Galatians 3:13;
Luke 24:21 - 29; 2:10, 11; John 4:40 - 42; Acts 12:23; Philippians 3:20; 1st Tim. 1:1 - 3; 4:10; Titus 1:1 - 4; 2:10 -13; 1st Peter 1:10, 11; Jude verse 25.
• The Shepherd is —
God — Psalms 23 & 100; Isaiah 40:10, 11.
Jesus — John 10:8 - 12; 1st Peter 2:21 - 25; Hebrews 13:20; 2nd Peter 5:4.
• The King is —
God — Psalm 47; 44:4; 74:12; Isaiah 43:10 - 15; 44:6 - 8; Jeremiah 10:10; Zech. 14:9.
Jesus — Matthew 2:1 - 6; Luke 19:32 - 38; John 18:37; 19:21; 1st Tim. 6:13 - 14; Rev. 15:1 - 4; 19:11 - 16.
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doodlebug
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| | Re: Jesus: man or God?
« Reply #2 on Dec 18, 2008, 9:53pm » | |
@ http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=23....885cb8b52cc9791
Post #11984 by Amani Sherif appeared. My responses exist between rows of boxes.
Hi.My name is Amani.This message is for clarification.I hope you visit
the following links to exchange the method of thinking.
The Existence of God
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/264/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiuZ7BC6F3I
The Bible
http://www.kronosofia.dk/frames/side/biblioteket/101.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/criticism.html
The trinity
The basic problem is that trinitarianism is a nonbiblical doctrine that contradicts a number of biblical teachings and many specific verses of Scripture.Moreover, the doctrine contains a number of internal contradictions.Of course, the most obvious internal contradiction is how there can be three persons of God in any meaningful sense and yet there be only one God.Below we have compiled a number of other contradictions and problems associated with trinitarianism.This list is not exhaustive but it does give an idea of how much the doctrine deviates from the Bible.
1.Did Jesus Christ have two fathers?The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination!
The Holy Spirit is a proxy. In John 14 Jesus proposes that the Father would send the H.S. (after J.'s ascention to Heaven) to be "another ["allos" in Greek] Comforter/ Helper," meaning another of the identical kind. "Heteros" means another, different item.
_ _ The Dogma = God is one Being who has revealed himself as 3 personal manifestations (personae)
(as heard ~ 1990, stated by Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute [...equip.org] via KKLA-FM, owned by the Salem Communications Corp., [http://salem.cc]).
_ _ Incidentally, Muslims affirm the Virgin Birth, saying that Allah has no "Walad," i.e., a son by the normal, marital manner. Christendom can affirm that Jesus is the "ibn" of the Father persona, i.e., a figurative son.
(Confer "The Compact Guide To World Religions," edited by Dean C. Halverson, published ~1995).
2.How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
John 4:24 reads, in Greek, "Spirit the God, ..." (Pneûma ho theós).
This identifies the substance, not the number of spirits that constitute the deity.
3.If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?
Peter's 1st Epistle, 2:21 = he serves as an example for his disciples.
4.Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
I concocted an analogy to a Mainframe Computer. Local files would be copied and called into terminals.
_ _ In the Gospels, he says that Satan "is approaching but shall find nothing in me," as I recall. I'll post the reference here later.
_ _ Here is what Bible with a commentary in it says about Mark 13:
``13:32 ... `nor the Son." When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowlege of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6-8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (Jn. 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (confer Jn. 2:25; 13:3), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know d uring the days of His humanity (Jn. 15:15). Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jeses resumed His full divine knowledge (cf. Matthew 28:18; Acts [of the Apostles] 1:7."
(-The [John F.] MacArthur Study Bible, published in 2006 by Thomas Nelson Publishers [http://www.ThomasNelson.com].)
5.Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
Jesus calls the Father "greater" than Jesus in John 14:28 (meizõn [õ = omega]), qualitatively speaking with regard to position/ rank.
However in Hebrews 1:4 Jesus is called "better" than the angels (kreittõn), quantitatively speaking, being their creator (Colossians 1:16, 17; compare 2:9).
(-Walter Martin, "The Kingdom of the Cults," pub. in 1985 by Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, Minnesota, p. 118+.)
6.Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).
"... He humbled himself and became obedient unto death" (Phil. 2:8). But verse 6 uses the present participle -- "being in the form of God."
7.Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10).
If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
"He gave up the ghost [=pneuma = spirit/ breath]" -- Luke 23:46 =~ Matt. 27:50, Mark 15:37, John 19:30.
8.How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).
_ _ Psalm 2:7, "... today I have begotten you," may be the Prophetic Past Tense, as I heard a clergyman on the radio say about another Messianic prophecy. (Psalm 2 is applied to Jesus in Acts 2:25).
_ _ "Before Abraham was, I AM," he says (John 8:58), quoting JeHoVaH in Exodus 3:14.
_ _ Revelation 3:15 and Colossians 1:15 call him "Firstborn." This does not imply that he was created. This is used to indicate the chief heir of God, as verses 12 - 14 affirm (compare Romans 8:17 and Hebrews 1:2). In the Old Testament, the eldest son receives twice the inheritance of another sibling.
9.If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).
That's Mormon dogma, e.g., "How are children begotten? ... just as [God] begot Jesus. ... [Heavenly] Father begot Jesus in the flesh ...," not merely his spirit - confer "Family Home Evening" ~ 1974?, p. ~ 130, & "Articles of Faith" by their Apostle, Mr. Talmage.
10.Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?
God is not contained totally in a body (John 4:24).
11.If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can
the reign of the Son have an ending? (I Corinthians 15:24-28).
[Christ's kingdom on Earth is subjugated to God.]
12.If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son
of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"? Are there two Sons?
His postmortem knowledge is affirmed (Colossians 2:3; Matthew 24:36; Revelation 19:12). Maybe his brain (before death) does not contain the data about his return so that Satan cannot learn it.
13.Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).
He receives veneration in Matt. 14:33 (proskuneo = kiss toward, like Psalm 2:12).
14.Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).
Isaiah 48:16 = Messiah speaking, "whom YaHWeH loves," (v. 14) not King Cyrus
(-The [John F.] MacArthur Study Bible, 2207, sold via ThomasNelson.com).
If there are 9 manifestations, there are three. The Dogma doesn't say "only 3."
15.Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
The Deity = One "what," expressed by three "whos."
16.There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
Jesus stands with the Father's glory in Acts 7:55.
There's a Bema/ judgment seat of Christ in 2nd Corinthians 5:10, where believers' works are assesed.
There's a Great White Throne where judgment is proclaimed against condemned souls (-Revelation, chapter 20:11).
17.If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).
A Theophany, like a Local File, can be manifested anywhere at the direction of the intelligence at (among other places) the Throne (or a Mainframe memory bank).
18.Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.
"For In him [=Christ] dwelleth all the full-ness of the Godhead [=theotëtos] bodily."
19.Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; I Corinthians 1:13).
Then they spoke in unfamiliar languages (or did so before baptism), revealing that Gentiles were being inducted into the Church.
20.Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).
The Trinity is a solution, not a problem. Someone said, God acts in 3 capacities -- to mandate (paternally), to physically fulfill prophecy and to assist invisibly.
21.If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).
In contrast to Pharisees, who gainsay the people's irenic sentiment, the Apostle Paul persecuted the Believers due to ignorance (1st Timothy 1:13).
_ _ Dr. MacArthur comments, "... the Holy Spirit ... testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us (John 15:26; 16:14, 15). No forgiveness was possible for these Pharisees who witnessed His miracles firsthand, knew the truth of his claims, and still blasphemed the Holy spirit -- because they had already rejected the fullest possible revelation. See notes on Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:29." (@ Mat. 12:31, 32, P. 1383 of T.M.S.B.)
_ _ Obscurantism leads to reprobation (Romans 1:18ff).
22.If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).
The H.S. would replace Christ on Earth. Dr. MacArthur writes (@ John 16:7ff),
``Again, the promise of the Holy Spirit being sent is given to comfort the disciples. See note on 15:25, 27. The first emphasis was on
His life-giving power (7:37 - 39). The next featured
His indwelling presence (14:16, 17). The next marked
His teaching ministry (14:26). His ministry of
empowering for witness is marked in 15:26." (P. 1583.)
23.Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).
24.Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).
25.If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
26.If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?
Is Jesus God?
<http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm>
<http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_45.htm>
Some misunderstood verses of the Bible now put back into their contexts
in the following link
<http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_27.htm>
Is Jesus the unique son of God?
The many Sons of God in the Bible:
1. Luke 3:38 "...Adam which was the Son of God."
2. Genesis 6:2 &4 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men...and when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men..."
3. Exodus 4:22 "Israel is my son even my first born."
4. Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the spirit of God are called sons of God,"
5. Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peace-makers for they shall be called sons of God."
By the above quotations from the Bible it should be clear that the term "Son of God," signifies only a righteous person. It does not mean that the person so titled is divine, or we would have hundreds of Gods according to the Bible. Jesus is described as the "son of man," 83 times in the New Testament whereas he's described only 13 times as the Son of God. What we also see is that Jesus used the terms, "Your Father," "Thy Father," describing God's relationship with people 13 times before the first time he ever said, "My Father," about God. All these show that he was in no way implying that God physically begot him or he was unique as a "Son of God".
<http://www.submission.org/jesus-son.html>
<http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-isjesusgod.shtml>
A careful reading of the Gospels clarifies that the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel.Compare the two narrations of Matthew and Luke:
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:18)
And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
(Luke 1:26-27).
The same role of the Holy Spirit (Gabriel), as a messenger and
a supporter from Allah, can be understood from Luke 22:43.
“And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him”.
See also:
“For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.” (Luke 1: 15)
John Biddle’s “Twelve Arguments Refuting The Deity of the Holy Spirit”
<http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/john-biddles-twelve-arguments-refuting-the-deity-of-the-holy-spirit/>
The crucifixion
<http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/crucified.htm>
<http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_crucifixionfacade.html>
<http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/did_not_die/jesus_did_not_die_07.php>
In the Gospel of Luke: "And he (Jesus) withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed, 'Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup (meaning death) from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.' And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him…" (Luke 22:41-43)
<http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/>
There are famous American & Canadian professors assert that Muhammad is a prophet.Click on the blue links in the following link then wait few minutes,the real player will be showed.To watch the video well make the size original by putting the pointer on the video then click on 1×.
<http://www.ebnmaryam.com/sh-hadat/sh-hadat.htm>
<http://www.55a.net/firas/english/>
If you want to listen to the recitation of holy Quran
<http://www.alafasy.com/?lang=en>
The translation of holy Quran
<http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php>
The biography of prophet Muhammed
<http://www.amrkhaled.net/acategories/categories161.html>
Ask about islam
<http://www.dar-alifta.org/default.aspx?LangID=2&Home=1>
Islamic organizations all over the world
<http://www.islamicfinder.org/index.php?lang=english>
Thank you for paying attention
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doodlebug
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alumnus of Sci. & Math. depts.
Joined: Apr 2004
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Posts: 51
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| | Re: Jesus: man or God?
« Reply #3 on Dec 26, 2008, 6:40pm » | |
Questions for Arians, paraphrased from "How To Answer A Jehovah's Witness" by Robert A. Morey ( http://www.FaithDefenders.com ), published in 1980 by Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, MN ——
and from "The God of Israel: one God or Three," available from The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry ( http://www.foi.org ) in Bellmawr, NJ.
Part I of III —— Preliminary Questions
• 1. Could the deity in Sacred Literature become a man, or is Deity limited?
Confer Mark 10:27, Pslam 135:6, Job 42:2; Daniel 4:34, 35.
• 2. Does the Bible support Monotheism or Polytheism (e.g., Henotheism)?
Psalm 115:1 - 8; Isaiah 43:10+; 44:6+; 45:5, 6, 21 - 23; 46:9; Acts 19:26; Galatians 4:8.
• 3. Are those that are godlike called gods? Consider Satan (2nd Corinthians 4:4), judges (Exodus 21:6; 22:8+) & Moses (Exo. 4:16).
a.) Do they have the nature of God?
b.) Does the Deity have any non-communicable attributes (e.g., omniscience, omnipotence, omniprescence)?
c.) Should we pray to, bow to, or give them honor such as is due to God? Cf. Deuteronomy 6:13.
d.) Should we expect from them what God gives?
• 4. Will YaHWeH share "glory," honor or worship with anyone? Consult Isaiah 42:8.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + More questions (-F.O.I.) + + + + + + + + + + + +
• 5. What is the meaning of the word "echád," commonly translated "one," in the catachism that Jews recite daily from Deut. 6:4?
[Ch = voiceless, rough breathing, like "Darth Vader."]
a.) Its other instances -- Genesis 1:5; 2:24; Ezra 2:64; Jeremiah 32:38+.
b.) Contrast that with "yachid," which is rendered "only" in Gen. 22:2; Psalm 22:20; Judges 11:34; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10.
[c.) -- Jews changed echád into éch-\uhd\ and defined that to mean an indivisible unit (-Dr. Morey).]
• 6. Why is God's name "Elohim" plural in Genesis 1:1, combined with a singular verb?
[Mormon henotheists ( http://www.lds.org ), I expect, shall bifurcate YaHWeH ("LORD" in Bibles) from Elohim in Psalm 100:3. I have not viewed their corresponding online commentary yet.]
Part II —— an Old Testament survey
• 1. Does the Deity appear in bodily form before the Christ's birth?
Peruse some of these passages: Genesis 18:13, 15, 17, 22; 32:24-30; 35:1 - 3, 9 - 13; Exodus 24:9 - 11; Isaiah 6:1 - 9.
• 2. What means of perception were used to examine Theophanies?
Genesis 16:13; 18:1 - 5; 32:24 - 30; Exo. 24:9+; Isa. 6.
• 3. Could people observe the Deity and not die, despite Exo. 34:20?
a.) Abraham washes the feet of the "LORD" (Gen. 18:1 - 4).
b.) Jacob engages in Martial Arts (Gen. 32:30; 35:1 - 15; Exo. 3:6).
c.) Moses sees his back (Exo. 33:18 - 23).
d.) Isaiah sees "the Lord" (Isa. 6:5).
• 4. Does John 12:37 - 43 identify a Theophany?
• 5. Who was Abraham (in Gen. 18) seeing according to John 8:58?
• 6. After visiting Abraham where was YaHWeH? Who was on earth in Gen. 19:24 when YHWH. bombards Sodom & Gomorrah?
• 7. Who was Jacob wrestling in Gen. 32:30 (confer Exodus 3:6)?
• 8. Could that wrestler, called "the God of Jacob" become Jesus (cf. Gen. 35:2 - 13)?
• 9. Did Jesus (in John 8:48) claim the divine name (found in Exo. 3:13, 14)?
• 10. Is Jesus different from figuarative "gods"?
a.) Should Christians worhip Jesus?
Compare Psalm 2:12 - "kiss the Son" with Matthew 14:33, where "worship" translates "prosekúneesan" (ee = eta), a form of proskuneõ = osculate/ "kiss toward."
b.) Who was worshiped in Gen. 32:30; cf. 35:1 - 15; Isa. 6; Ex. 24:1, 9 - 11?
c.) To what extent should Christians express to Jesus their belief, expectation and affection?
[Jesus says 2 words to Peter translated "love" in John's last chapter — phileõ and agapee, i.e., friendly affection and devotion.]
d.) Are divine attributes assigned to the Messiah?
N.B.: Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6 [more about 10:20+ later].
• 11. What titles, names or functions are assigned in the New Testament via Old Testament quotaions?
_________ O.T. _______|_________________ N.T._________________| name / title
Psa. 23:1 & Isa. 40:1-11 | John 10:1-14; Heb. 13:20; 1 Pet. 2:25; 5:4: Shepherd
Psalm 50:1-6 .............. | 2nd Thessal-onians 1:7-10 ......................
Psa. 68:15-18 ............. | Ephesians 4:8 .......................................
Psa 102:1, 12, 25-27 .... | Hebrews 1:10-12 ....................................
Isaiah 8:12-15 ............. | 1st Peter 2:8 .........................................
Isa. 40:3, 9-11............. | John 1:23; Revelation 22:12 .....................
Isa. 43:3 .................... | Acts of the Apostles 3:14 ........................
Isa. 44:6 ..................... \ Rev. 1:7, 8, 17, 18; 2:8; 22:13 ................
Isa. 45:22, 23 ................ \ Romans 14:9-12; 2 Cor. 5:10; Phil. 2:10 ...
Isa. 62:11, 12 .................. \ Rev. 22:12 .......................................
Jeremiah 11:20; 17:10; 20:12 \ Rev. 2:23 ........................................
Jer. 23:6; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; Mal. 3:1+; confer Matt. 11:10 ..................
Joel 2:32 ...............................\ Rom. 10:9-15 ...............................
Zechariah 12:10 ...................... \ John 19:37 ................................
Gen. 18:3 . . . Acts 10:36
Gen. 18:25 . . . 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
Gen. 32:30 . . . John 1:1
Gen. 35:11 . . . Gen. 35:1
Exo. 3:14 . . . John 8 58
Psa. 23:1 . . . John 10:14
Psa. 45:6 . . . Heb. 1:8 [?]
Isa. 7:14 . . . Mat. 1:23
Isa. 9:6 . . . Luke 1:31-33
N.B.: A syllogism/ argument may be derived from 10:20, 21;
similarly, if quantity A is > or = B, and B >/= C, then A > or = C.
Isa. 10:20 . . . Acts 3:14
Isa. 44:6 . . . Rev. 22:12-16 (v. 13).
How does Psa. 90:1, 2 relate to Micah 5:2?
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doodlebug
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Joined: Apr 2004
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| | Re: Jesus: man or God?
« Reply #4 on Dec 31, 2008, 9:04pm » | |
Part III -- New Testament Survey
1. —> Isaiah 40:33, 10; Mat. 3:1 - 3; Luke 1:76
2. —> Mat. 1:23
3. —> John 1:1 Before the beginning (of Space-Time & of Matter-Energy), did "the Word," its creator, exist? (Consult verse 3).
4. —> In that verse, what is the Word called?
Hint: in the Greek it's [ee = eta],
"En archee een ho logos, kai ho logos een pros ton theon, kai theos een ho logos.
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward the God, and God was the Word.
5. —> Consult John 1:3; Colossians 1:16, 17; Hebrews 1:10 - 12; 2:10.
6. —> In John 1:18, what 2 persons are named there?
7. —> In verse 18, Jesus is called, "mono-genees theos," the only-begotten, unique God. (Other people were called "only-begotten" — e.g. in Hebrews 11:17 (Isaac); Genesis 16:15; 25:5, 6.)
8. —> Does John 1:18 explain appearances of YaHWeH-God?
9. —> How was God called Jesus' own Father in John 5:18?
10. —> Jesus affirms his equlity with God ("... we are one"). His purpose of his authority (v. 22) is given in v. 23:
``so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. ..." What is the condemnation that results from failure to do so (v. 23)?
11. —> In John 10: 30 & 31, why did Jews attempt to kill Jesus?
12. —> Why would they be upset (v. 33) if he referred to a common purpose with the "Father" God-personage?
13. —> In John 8:24, 58, 59, what did they do when he says "I am"?
[In Greek text, "he" does not follow "am" - it reads (oo = omega),
Ameen, ameen legoo humin prin Abraam genesthai, egoo eimi.
Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.]
14. —> In John 20:27, 28, what did Thomas say "to him [Jesus]"?
15. —> Did Rabbi Jesus deny the epithet (v. 29) or rebuke Thomas for mis-speaking?
16. —> Contrast Jesus' behavior with that of angels when they received honor in Revelation 22:8, 9. Worship of Angels is derided Colossians 2:18.
17. —> Hebrews 1:5, 6 — God did not call an angel his Son.
18. —> Whom do angels worship?
19. —> What did angels in Isaiah say & to whom in chapter 6?
20. —> If that was Jesus, is he an angel?
21. —> In The Acts of the Apostles 14:11 - 18, how did the Apostle Paul react to being venerated?
22. —> Why did the Disciples venerate Jesus & why did he accept it (apparently)?
Confer Mat. 2:34; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52, John 9:38; 1st Corinthians 1:2?
23. —> In Acts 20:28, Why is Jesus' blood called God's blood (which bought the Christians)?
24. —> Romans 9:5 Who is "over all" and "God blessed forever"?
25. —> Identify "The Rock of Israel" in Deuter-onomy 32:1 - 4.
26. —> Who is the entity in 1st Corinthians 10:1 - 4?
27. —> Col. 2.9
28. —> Who is called "The Great God and Savior of us" in Titus 2:13? According to Protestants, the Greek text's structure this follows the Granville-Sharp rule of interpretation, where "and" means "even," i.e. "=".
29. —> ... and in 2nd Peter 1:1?
30. —> In 1st John 5:20, who is "the true God and eternal life"?
31. —> Did the Father share glory (in John 17:5) with the Son? Would a created being receive that according to Isaiah 42:8?
32. —> In Col. 1:16, 17, Christ predates all things, which he created, e.g. celestial, terrestrial, apparent & hidden entities
(e.g., angels — Eph. 1:20; col. 2:15 Gen. 3:15; John 12:31; 16:11; Heb. 2:14).
What is the purpose of God's created things (Romans 11:33 - 36; Heb. 1:2)?
33. —> Could the creator & sustainer "of all things" be one of them - dependent items?
34. —> The (anonymous) Epistle to the Hebrews begins with a dissertation on Christ's superiority to created things. He is called "better" (kreittõn in Greek) in 1:4; 7:19, 22; 8:6; 9:23; 12:24.
A.) In his revelation (verse 3) he is better than the Old Testament that was delivered by angels.
B.) In v. 4 he is better than angels in his interitance.
C.) Did the Father ever call an angel his Son?
D.) In v. 6, ....
E.) V. 7 is a description of angels.
F.) In v. 8, what does grammar indicate about his identity? ("... About the Son a he [in Psalm 45:6 & 7] says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever .... therefore God, your God has set you above your companions ...’" -New Ineternational Version.)
G.) Who is (or are) those God[s] in Psalm 45?
H.) Although created things are temporary (Heb. 1:11; Psalm 102:24), the Deity isn't.
I.) How is Christ described in Heb. 13:8? ("... yesterday, today & forever").
J.) ``To which of the angels dod God ever say, `Sit at my right hand ...'" (1:13; Psalm 110:1)?
K.) What does that clause mean? Co-regency, perhaps (-R.A.M.)?
L.) Verse 13 concludes, "... until I make your enemies your footstool." It is repeated in Heb. 10:3; Mat. 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35. Confer Joshua 10:24; Phil. 2:10. Sovereignty is in view (-M.S.B.).
M.) Angelology - Ministering spirits (Psa. 103:20f; Dan. 7:10) for the benefit of Salvation's inheritors (Mat. 25:34; Mk. 10:17; Titus 3:7; Heb. 6:12).
Salvation - Rom. 1:14; 1 Cor. 1:21; Heb. 2:3; 5:9; 9:28 —M.S.B.
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monyb
Guest
|  | Re: Jesus: man or God?
« Reply #5 on Jan 10, 2009, 11:40pm » | |
. Here's where a woman told me not long ago, when I was... She said, "Jesus wasn't the... divine." Said, "He was a good man, a good teacher, so forth, be good for people to live by that. Just like with Santa Claus, stories for the children. But," said, "he wasn't divine." I said, "Oh, yes He was Divine." Said, "No, he wasn't." I said, "He was." She said, "Look, I can prove it. When He went down to the grave of Lazarus, He cried like a man." I said, "Yes. I believe He was more than a man. I believe He was a God-man. I believe that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. I believe God lived in His son, dwelled in His Son, and reconciled the world to Himself by His Son." Do you believe that? I do with all my heart. And He was more than a man. He was God the... God the Son here on earth. Everything the Father had was in Him then.
BELIEVEST_THOU_THIS MINNEAPOLIS_MN 07-16-50
86 And I believe that He was more than a man, He was God-man. And when He went down to the--to the grave, He cried like a man. That's true. But when He stood there, held Himself and said, told them to take away the stone, said, 'Lazarus, come forth.' When He raised the dead, He was more than a man. He was God. He was a man when He was crying, but He was God when He raised the dead. That's right. Yes, sir, He was Divine. And I tell you, when He come down off the mount that night, He was hungry like a man, when He was looking on the fig tree for something to eat, when He was hungry like a man. But when He took five biscuits and fed five thousand, He was God that was in His Son. He was a God-man. I know that He was. He was a man that night when He was laying in that boat out there, all the waves dancing around. Ten thousand devils of the sea swore they would drown Him.
BELIEVEST_THOU_THIS MINNEAPOLIS_MN 07-16-50
87 He was a man when He was laying there on the back of that boat, tired and weary. But when He raised and put His foot on the brail, and looked up, said, "Peace, be still." It was God speaking through His Son. Hallelujah! I believe He was a God-man. He was more than a man. He was the Divine One that God sent from out of heaven. Yes, sir. I know He cried like a man when He was dying at the cross, mid rendering rocks and darkening skies, my Saviour bowed His head and died. That's right. He was a man when He was dying. But when He rose on the third day, He proved He was God. That's right. God was in His Son. He raised Him up. He was Divine. I believe every word of It. I can see Him walking down through that place there then, to the grave. Said, "Take ye away the stone." Look like if He'd have been a gentleman, He'd have took it away Himself. But He asked them women to. Why? You've got your part to do. Yes, sir. You've got to do your part. Said, "Take ye away the stone." And they took away the stone and the stink was so bad. And they was about to have suffocated there on account of that, a dead human body.
BELIEVEST_THOU_THIS MINNEAPOLIS_MN 07-16-50
88 Then I can see Him straighten His little self up again; said, "Father, I thank Thee that Thou hearest Me always. But for these that stand by..." is why I said He'd already seen the vision. He knew what was going to happen. Then He cried with a loud voice and screamed, said, "Lazarus, come forth." I believe, brother, if He hadn't have called him specifically by the name of Lazarus, I believe the general resurrection would've took place then. That's what I think about Him. That's right. I believe the resurrection of every dead thing that had ever died would've come out of the grave if He had just said, "Come forth." Yes, sir. But He called, "Lazarus, come forth." I'm glad today that my name's on His Book. "One day He will call too, and I will answer," said Job. But there, He called on Lazarus, a man that had been dead four days, his body rotten, his soul four day's journey somewhere out in...
BELIEVEST_THOU_THIS MINNEAPOLIS_MN 07-16-50
89 I don't know where it was, neither do you, so we won't argue about that. But that man's soul had been gone four days, returned back. And a dead man stood on his feet and lived again. Believest thou this? Yes, sir. I believe it. I believe He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. Believest thou this? I believe He was the One that spoke to the seas, and they stopped. Believest thou this? I believe that He said in His Words, "These things that I do, greater shall you do." Believest thou this? I believe that He said, "If you abide in Me, My Word abides in you, you can ask what you may, and it will be given to you." Believest thou this?
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doodlebug
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alumnus of Sci. & Math. depts.
Joined: Apr 2004
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Posts: 51
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| | Re: Jesus: man or God?
« Reply #6 on Nov 6, 2009, 7:35pm » | |
Jehovah's Witnesses (the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in Brooklyn, New York) downplay Jesus' use of "I AM" in John's Gospel, chapter 8, verse 58. He says, ``Before Abraham was, I am."
Oneself could speculate that he was claiming to be a Judge, since he alludes, in John 10.34, to Psalm 82.6, which says,
``I have said, Ye {unjust judges in verse 2} [are] gods and all of you [are] children of the most High" (King James' Authorized Version).
In Deuter-o-nomy 32.39, Moses describes God in this capacity,
``See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand"
(New American Standard Bible, (c) 1960 et seq.).
Protestants retort that these words are found in the Jews' Greek translation of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint) in Exodus 3.14, i.e., "ego eimi."
Ron Rhodes has questions for the J.W.s in his book "Reasoning From the Scriptures With the Jehovah's Witnesses":--
Don't you think that first-century Jews, who would have been very familiar with the Septuagint, would have seen this connection beteween the two verses?
Since all the "I am" sayings are clearly intended to be related to each other in John's Gospel, why does the [Watchtower's] New World Translation correctly translate "ego eimi" as "I am" throughout the Gospel of John except in John 8:58, where it translates "ego eimi" as "I have been"? Shouldn't there be consistency in translation?
Why would the want to stone & seize him (John 8.59 & 10.39) if he only saying that he & the Father-God are one in purpose (as one might speculate about John 10.30)?
_________________________________________
* -- The Trinity means that God, who is one being, revealed himself in 3 personal manifestations:
The Father offers Salvation (reconciliation) to all people;
The Son secures Salvation by vicarious satifaction of Justice;
The Holy Spirit operates in the life of the Believer/ Faithful as a "Comforter" (John 14.16, (Authorized Version)/ "Helper" (NASB), i.e. the Paraclete/ para-kl{ee}ton, that is, one who "comes along-side." {ee = eta}
** -- as distinguished from IBN, i.e. a figurative son - e.g. an IBN of the road is a traveler
(-Rick Rood in "The Compact Guide [to] World Religions," published circa 1995 -- recommended by D. James Kennedy).
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